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Sochi Vents, Chats, Complaints and other stuff...

#21 User is offline   queen's_subject 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:50 PM

View Postjaylee, on 22 February 2014 - 03:31 PM, said:

AFAIK, Adelina is going to Worlds.


Oops, sorry.

#22 User is offline   queen's_subject 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 03:57 PM

View PostLaymanFan, on 22 February 2014 - 03:01 PM, said:

Just getting over the shell shock. Now I'm just fighting mad with some of the crap I've been reading such as Dan Wetzel's Yahoo article. It's less about having differing opinions. I can respect that. It's the dismissive tone I found so offensive. This is from the same idiot who said in some of his earlier stories that Mao is the only woman to have successfully done a triple axel in competition and that she was once coached by Brian Orser.

Is it small of me to admit that part of me hopes Adelina just bombs at Worlds? Okay, yes, that's mean-spirited, as it's not her fault but the fault of the judges (though I do wish she showed some humility and sensitivity in her comments and actions, as our Queen would have done in victory).

So here's what I do wish. I want Adelina to compete at Worlds. I want her to do well and be clean, as good or better than what she did at the Olympics. But then she barely breaks 200 (okay, maybe 210, which is still inflated in my opinion but not as outrageous as what she got in Sochi) when judged by a non-partisan panel and in a non-partisan venue. I want Mao, Gracie and the others to bring their A game. I want Adelina to not even place in the top ten. Then the world would truly see what a sham Sochi has been. Is that asking for too much?



View Postshallwedansu, on 22 February 2014 - 03:33 PM, said:

I don't mean to offend and I understand you're upset, but please, you're coming off as a full on hater on tilt. The poor judging is unfair to me too but we have to remember to hate the system and the corrupt judges, not the figure skater. Her remarks weren't the most humble, but even so, there's a little too much nastiness going on here.


Sorry, if I came off as being nasty. I've written several posts about the judging, nothing in regards to Adelina. I was merely responding to LaymanFan's post (especially what I bolded). I was just poking fun. Not sure why I'm being singled out, but thank you for bringing it to my attention and the affect it had.

This post has been edited by queen's_subject: 22 February 2014 - 03:57 PM


#23 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:32 PM

Here's an update on the article I'm writing. Please let me know what you think.

Quote

Figure Skating Scandal Robs Kim of 2nd Gold

"May I have the scores please. She has received 149.95 ... putting her into 1st place."

That was the announcement heard inside a raucous Iceberg Skating Palace on Thursday night, following the free skate of Adelina Sotnikova of Russia. The partisan Russian crowd celebrated.
"Rus-ay-a!" There was almost no chance another skater could top her unbelievable high score.

That's right: Ms. Sotnikova's unbelievable high score.

A few minutes later the final competitor of the evening took the ice -- Yuna Kim of South Korea. Ms. Kim, the defending Olympic and World Champion, and leader after the short program, must have known the task in front of her was simply impossible. Ms. Kim herself had set the world record of 150.06 four years earlier in Vancouver, with a technically and artistically flawless free skate of such surpassing quality that it will always be remembered as one of the greatest Olympic performances of all time.

But now -- even as the short program leader -- Ms. Kim would need to set a new world record. How could this be? The International Skating Union had eliminated an entire technical element, the spiral sequence, worth about 4 points, since Yuna's gold medal performance in Vancouver. Even if she repeated that historical skate, the most she could hope to score was 146.

But there it was, that unbelievable number on the board: 149.95 for Ms. Sotnikova.

For her part, the Russian skater -- little known outside her home country, and who had never won a major senior international competition -- had just delivered the greatest skate of her life. But unlike Kim's record breaking performance four years earlier, Sotnikova's Olympic moment was not without flaws. For one, the Russian nearly tumbled over on one of her jumps, called a step-out, where she two-footed a landing.

(insert .gif here)

Second and more nuanced were the lower quality of some of her elements. Without a doubt, Sotnikova's spins were powerful and impressive, and her jumps had superb height. But to the trained eye, things like her footwork, ice coverage, flow, and run-out were nowhere near the equal of someone like Yuna Kim's. Whether or not she fully rotated some of her jumps, or even took off on the proper edge, could be questioned by the technical panel. And there were also those components scores, which more or less reflect a skater's artistic performance. Sotnikova, known for her technical prowess and not her artistry, had just received the highest components scores ever handed out in ladies figure skating history.

Mistakes, lack of refinement and all, her score still remained on the board.
Adelina Sotnikova, Russia, 149.95 -- the equivalent of an 11 out of 10.
------------------------------------------------

This post has been edited by ToFarAwayTimes: 22 February 2014 - 04:42 PM


#24 User is offline   lilahozi 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM

@ TooFarAwayTimes, I think you need to address the questionable scoring in the Short Program as well. This wasn't just an issue of the Free Skate.

Many people seem to be quoting the NYT article as the authority on why Sotnikova beat Kim. The common argument is "Sotnikova had one more jump!" That is NOT the issue here. The issue is how BOTH Sotnikova and Lipniskaia received WILDLY inflated PCS scores, how they never received the error calls that they had been receiving all season long, how both Kostner and Kim's PCS/GOEs were held down, how Asada still scored below Sotnikova with the most technically difficult program of the night, etc.

There are just one too many coincidences.

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#25 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:55 PM

View Postlilahozi, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

@ TooFarAwayTimes, I think you need to address the questionable scoring in the Short Program as well. This wasn't just an issue of the Free Skate.

Many people seem to be quoting the NYT article as the authority on why Sotnikova beat Kim. The common argument is "Sotnikova had one more jump!" That is NOT the issue here. The issue is how BOTH Sotnikova and Lipniskaia received WILDLY inflated PCS scores, how they never received the error calls that they had been receiving all season long, how both Kostner and Kim's PCS/GOEs were held down, how Asada still scored below Sotnikova with the most technically difficult program of the night, etc.

There are just one too many coincidences.


Thanks lilahozi. Yes, I will address that part too and more. At the beginning, I wanted to set the tone for Adelina's score, how impossibly high it was, without getting too technical. In the next part, I'm going to write about Yuna's skate, and the pressure she was under, and the performance she delivered. Then of course her score came up, and everyone in the skating world immediately had disbelief.

Then I will go back and break down the scoring line by line, short program and long program, and discredit the arguments being made by NYT, NBC, Wetzel Yahoo guy, etc.

Hopefully by the end of the article, I will be able to discredit their misleading disingenuous arguments, and present the scoring reasons why Sotnikova's total has no bearing to reality compared to Kim's.

#26 User is offline   lilahozi 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 22 February 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Thanks lilahozi. Yes, I will address that part too and more. At the beginning, I wanted to set the tone for Adelina's score, how impossibly high it was, without getting too technical. In the next part, I'm going to write about Yuna's skate, and the pressure she was under, and the performance she delivered. Then of course her score came up, and everyone in the skating world immediately had disbelief.

Then I will go back and break down the scoring line by line, short program and long program, and discredit the arguments being made by NYT, NBC, Wetzel Yahoo guy, etc.

Hopefully by the end of the article, I will be able to discredit their misleading disingenuous arguments, and present the scoring reasons why Sotnikova's total has no bearing to reality compared to Kim's.


Instead of making it strictly a Sotnikova vs Kim issue, it's more a Russian skaters vs everyone else issue. Lipniskaia vs Asada, Kim, Kostner.

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#27 User is offline   jimakros 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:58 PM

i believe this will be a huge stain in FS world for years to come.To make Russians happy for a couple days,they didnt realize how damaging this was for the sport.There were controversies before,and most people,have forgotten about them,but this one will be remembered because it was done to yu-na ,a skater people will be talking about for ages.
I'm ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN they will regret it badly.

However,it matters very little anymore.Its obvious,to most peoples minds yu-na is the winner in Sochi.Thats what really matters.The fact a handful of people decided to give someone else the gold medal matters very little.

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#28 User is offline   rainydays 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 04:59 PM

Also, may want to bring up Mao's 8 triples and Caro's 7 triples and how basically they screwed all the veteran skaters. That 7 vs. 6 triple is just ridiculous. :wallbash:

Someone mentioned how ISU and commentators did 180% on what they said about men's gold in 2010 about overall quality edging out more difficult content - that could never be truer.

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#29 User is offline   bumblybuzz 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:03 PM

View Postlilahozi, on 22 February 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

@ TooFarAwayTimes, I think you need to address the questionable scoring in the Short Program as well. This wasn't just an issue of the Free Skate.

Many people seem to be quoting the NYT article as the authority on why Sotnikova beat Kim. The common argument is "Sotnikova had one more jump!" That is NOT the issue here. The issue is how BOTH Sotnikova and Lipniskaia received WILDLY inflated PCS scores, how they never received the error calls that they had been receiving all season long, how both Kostner and Kim's PCS/GOEs were held down, how Asada still scored below Sotnikova with the most technically difficult program of the night, etc.

There are just one too many coincidences.


Yes, agreed! These articles do not reveal the full story and focus too much on one aspect of the scoring, while ignoring the blatant misjudging everywhere else.

On another note, I find it upsetting that some comment on Yuna's expression after finishing the long. They almost criticize her for not expressing joy or breaking down into tears. They say that it looks like she wasn't happy with her own performance. How can people criticize her for her expression after? To me, that small smile and then bending her head down shows how relieved she is that skated well, did her best, and gave it her all. She left everything she had out there on the ice in front of a hostile crowd and was completely drained, physically and emotionally. She must have been so relieved that she didn't fall in front of a crowd that was desperately willing her to make a mistake throughout her whole performance. In addition, I think she already knew what was going to happen. She had a premonition after the short that the judges were going to hold her down no matter what she did. Her expression showed that she knew what to expect and accepted it with her usual grace and dignity. She knew she had given the performance of a lifetime in the worst possible situation, and she was happy and satisfied with it. No regrets whatsoever.

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#30 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:04 PM

View Postrainydays, on 22 February 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Also, may want to bring up Mao's 8 triples and Caro's 7 triples and how basically they screwed all the veteran skaters. That 7 vs. 6 triple is just ridiculous. :wallbash:

Someone mentioned how ISU and commentators did 180% on what they said about men's gold in 2010 about overall quality edging out more difficult content - that could never be truer.


That's a good idea, I will include Scott Hamilton's comments about Evan winning in 2010 contrasted to his comments about Sotnikova winning 2014. Hopefully expose him as a hypocrite.

I too hate hate hate trying to reduce this down to 7 triples vs. 6, as Caro and Mao were both victims too, and there were so many other things about the scoring, including Yuna's harder jumps in the short program.

This post has been edited by ToFarAwayTimes: 22 February 2014 - 05:06 PM


#31 User is offline   lilahozi 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:05 PM

More points to consider: For all of the people saying Adelina was more "spunky", Adios is goodbye/funeral music! It's hard to be spunky about that kind of music. LAWD.

Although I do agree Kim was flat in the LP.

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#32 User is offline   niteangel1004 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:08 PM

I think fans should be careful. Yuna clearly has the goodwill of people, knowledgable about COP, who understand the situation. But hammering the issue might turn people off and hurt Yunas image. I have seen the giant petition turn off one such person. I have already accepted that Adelina won because she is Russian and the competition was in Russia. Although, I think most of the overzealous fans (the horrible kind that send Adelina death threats) are in Korea....

This post has been edited by niteangel1004: 22 February 2014 - 05:08 PM


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#33 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:10 PM

View Postniteangel1004, on 22 February 2014 - 05:08 PM, said:

I think fans should be careful. Yuna clearly has the goodwill of people, knowledgable about COP, who understand the situation. But hammering the issue might turn people off and hurt Yunas image. I have seen the giant petition turn off one such person. I have already accepted that Adelina won because she is Russian and the competition was in Russia. Although, I think most of the overzealous fans (the horrible kind that send Adelina death threats) are in Korea....


It's not just about Yuna. It's about fair competition and setting good examples. If nothing gets fixed, the cheaters will win and they will just continue to do it in the future. Some other little girl will get screwed next time. And the clean people will be tempted to cheat in order to keep up. It's an evil cycle that must be broken.

This isn't a subjective "Yuna is the best" issue, where other people might feel Adelina was better on that night. This is an issue where if you know anything about CoP, you can immediately tell the placements were fixed and rigged by the judges, and the numbers afterward were make believe placeholders.

This post has been edited by ToFarAwayTimes: 22 February 2014 - 05:12 PM


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#34 User is offline   skyyblue 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:19 PM

ToFarAwayTimes -

Great article. Just a few points only bc I haven't read any article that fully addresses everything. The other articles are just diatribes of nationalism or "experts" saying that's the IJS but Yuna shoud have won whether this was under 6.0 or the current IJS system for the following reasons:

1. Everyone is focusing on higher TES in the free between Yuna and Adelina but your total score is a composite of both short and free skates. The problems began with the short program. Yuna Kim was underscored even though she had the highest level of difficulty of the top 3, yet when it was over she was only .3 ahead of Adelina. ONe judge even gave her zero goe points for her 3 flip while Adelina received + GOEs on her flip, which was clearly lower quality. Adelina was the only skater to receive a level 4 for her step sequence. So the top 3 ended up practically tied which never should have been the case.

2. free skate - adelina once again was also the only skater to receive level 4 for her step sequence while caro and yuna both received level 3. No one has explained why this is but it is the tech caller who determines the level - Russian.

TES - yes, adelina had extra 3loop and a level 4 vs level 3 on layback spin which attributed to her higher TES. There is no dispute. However, there are some that say her triple toe was underrotated on the 3Lz/3T combo. The camera angles that I have seen do not show the blade so I cannot say. However, if Yuna had been properly scored in the short, then Adelina's higher TES in the free skate would have been negligible.

Regardless of her TES score, the real problem lies with her PCS score. Any skater, judge, coach and casual figure skating fan or non-fan can see that her choreography, interpretation, skating skills are far far below the level of any of the top skaters - yuna, mao , caro - and yet her pcs score was higher than everyone and only a few tenths below yuna.

3. the regular audience does not realize what the scores - those numbers mean. her 149.95 means that it's the second best free skate ever under the IJS system. When you put that into perspective, that skate was NOT The second best free skate ever. Not even close.

4. Unlike Salt Lake City, there's no direct evidence of judge collusion. Instead, what you have is a predetermined intention to ensure that a Russian woman would be on the podium. I am convinced that if Julia had not fallen, there would be two Russian women on the podium. THe RUssians were consistently overscored in every discipline. Lipnitskaya was overscored in both the short and the free skate despite her falls.

The scenario:

Yuna was deliberately underscored in the short. When Adelina went clean in her short, they overscored her so that she was basically tied with Caro and Yuna despite her lower level of difficulty and the quality of her skate. When she skated first in the free, they did whatever they could to inflate her scores except for the stumble out of the combo. They ignored edge calls, gave her higher level step sequence and then maximized her GOEs in all the areas but most importantly the PCS. Both Caro and Yuna never had a chance.

Other articles focus on the free skate only, but this was a predetermined result before anyone stepped out on the ice. THe only mystery was which Russian would be on the podium and whether or not it would be 1 or 2 RUssians with medals.

In this anonymous IJS system, you no longer need judge collusion. Instead, you put enough Eastern Bloc judges on the panel, wife of the RUssian fed president, Russian tech caller with final say and then you inflate inflate inflate the score of the Russian skater that you want to put on the podium. You max out her scores while deliberately underscoring any possible contenders - in this case - Yuna and Caro. And since the scoring is anonymous, you can't point fingers. The proper placement is Yuna, Caro and then Adelina.



JUst my thoughts. Obviously you can't put everything in your article but I thought it would be worth mentioning.

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#35 User is offline   rainydays 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:19 PM

We'll see in the next few years.

Can anyone imagine what would be like watching all the gold winning programs back to back? Arakawa's skating was so lovely, mature and smooth, but there's of course a marked improvement in technical difficulty and overall precision and musicality in Yuna's performance four years later.

And four years after that, we have Adelina's. How does it compare? <_<

Perhaps around the next Olympics, people would be rewatching all the programs again and then the qualities of the programs would become even more self-evident.

I remember how they rediscovered Yuna after Worlds in 2013. Her flawless and pristine skating becomes even more obvious during its absence. I don't know if who, if any, could emerge as the undisputed best, as Yuna, Mao and Carolina have in the last two to three quads, but I doubt anyone can match such precision and quality that Yuna brings on ice. It'll be amazing to look at her both LP and SP from Sochi.

Time will tell.

#36 User is offline   bumblybuzz 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:20 PM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 22 February 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

It's not just about Yuna. It's about fair competition and setting good examples. If nothing gets fixed, the cheaters will win and they will just continue to do it in the future. Some other little girl will get screwed next time. And the clean people will be tempted to cheat in order to keep up. It's an evil cycle that must be broken.

This isn't a subjective "Yuna is the best" issue, where other people might feel Adelina was better on that night. This is an issue where if you know anything about CoP, you can immediately tell the placements were fixed and rigged by the judges, and the numbers afterward were make believe placeholders.


In addition, the judging system seriously needs to be questioned. I think even Scott Hamilton and Dick Button agree that you can't have that much conflict of interest on an Olympic judging panel. You just can't! I'm not sure how that was ever allowed, but then again we are at a Russian olympics.

I had a question about the Korean Olympic Committee's complaint that was filed today? Is anything going to come of that? I heard that it is too late for the ISU to review the judging, as a complaint needs to be filed immediately within the hour after the competition. I'm torn on what to think about this formal complaint issue. On the one hand, I really, really want Yuna to be vindicated officially. On the other hand, if there really was to be a formal review, I am terrified that they will STILL pull strings and work their magic to doubly confirm Adelina as the winner. The way things are now, at least the whole world KNOWS that Yuna is the Olympic champion, and they have given her a gold medal in their hearts. Still, I do want some lasting changes to come out of this scandal, otherwise I am never watching figure skating again.

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:28 PM

View Postlilahozi, on 22 February 2014 - 05:05 PM, said:

More points to consider: For all of the people saying Adelina was more "spunky", Adios is goodbye/funeral music! It's hard to be spunky about that kind of music. LAWD.

Although I do agree Kim was flat in the LP.


I think Adios is really really hard to skate to for the LP. Her music cuts in particular lack the typical climax except at the very end. But the pumping of your arms to get the audience to clap, waving at the judges, pulling imaginary rope and odd robotic gestures is NOT SKATING.

If a double fist pump is enough to sway judges, then every skater should do that regardless of the quality of the skate.

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#38 User is offline   skyyblue 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:34 PM

View Postbumblybuzz, on 22 February 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

In addition, the judging system seriously needs to be questioned. I think even Scott Hamilton and Dick Button agree that you can't have that much conflict of interest on an Olympic judging panel. You just can't! I'm not sure how that was ever allowed, but then again we are at a Russian olympics.

I had a question about the Korean Olympic Committee's complaint that was filed today? Is anything going to come of that? I heard that it is too late for the ISU to review the judging, as a complaint needs to be filed immediately within the hour after the competition. I'm torn on what to think about this formal complaint issue. On the one hand, I really, really want Yuna to be vindicated officially. On the other hand, if there really was to be a formal review, I am terrified that they will STILL pull strings and work their magic to doubly confirm Adelina as the winner. The way things are now, at least the whole world KNOWS that Yuna is the Olympic champion, and they have given her a gold medal in their hearts. Still, I do want some lasting changes to come out of this scandal, otherwise I am never watching figure skating again.


As far as I know about the rules, KOC's "complaint" was just a letter requesting an investigation but a real petition of complaint needs to happen i think within 30 minutes after scores. This complaint appears to be a way to appease the angry Korean people and more gratuitous than anything. I believe ISU has already released a statement saying all is good with IJS and there are no problems with the judging.

There will be no change in the results or the color of the medal. Judges are anonymous. Tech caller has final say. The TES is a math game but the GOEs and PCS are harder to quantify. Frankly, ISU runs as if the judges are neutral but these judges are sponsored by their national federation so national allegiance is a given. Unfortunately, some judges are fair but some are not. At least we should be able to see which judge gave what score. Now it's "anonymous".

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:38 PM

@ ToFarAwayTimes
Maybe you could add a sentence about how this is not about 6.0 vs. CoP system, but that the rules of the CoP system was undermined by too much freedom and anominity in the PCs area by the judges.
I think one of the reasons NBC and such are trying to avoid a scandal is because they fear the CoP System will get overthrown. But there's no denying that the new system is fairer than the old one - just that corruption is still has it ways within it.

Please watch this insightful interview: It's an interview with Olympic level judge John Jackson:

http://www.theskatin...ws-jon-jackson/

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#40 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 22 February 2014 - 05:43 PM

I really appreciate everyone's feedback! I will try to include everything, if possible. The article isn't finished, that was just the introduction, and I will have another update with more paragraphs in awhile, but every thought you guys have might be worth including, so keep 'em coming! :biggrin2:

The only way we will be able to overcome the PC "7 vs. 6" nonsense is to put out a coherent, logical story to show the public exactly why the scores are clearly not possible.

So, just trying to do my small little part.

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