Min-Jung's Danse Macabre, *moved from yu-na chat / 28th July 2010* Options

[rock robster]

Here's another Danse Macabre waiting for our review, rock robster!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbH6znJOiw
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgptur2009/CAT002RS.HTM

I've watched Sofia's Bosphorus Cup vid, as well as Apple Cinnamon's Kiri vid, about ten times apiece. It's actually pretty fascinating to watch these junior performances, something I've never really done before. I'd love to get your thoughts, yunameter, while I work through my own (you did say "our" review, didn't you? ).

[yunameter]

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant 'your'. :-)

[GiuliaPlumm]

I won't comment too much on Filippo, except to say that his spins were so slow that you could probably put an old Beatles record on top of his head and hear the "Paul is dead" hidden message.

[GiuliaPlumm]

Edit: On second thought, however, I guess I shouldn't be so hard on him, as I assume he's still pretty young. Is anyone familiar with Filippo Ambrosini? Is he considered promising?

Well,he's still young I guess... : )
a bit of OT if anyone is interested in Italian figure skating XD ... right now the prime male skaters are definitely Samuel Contesti (who actually was born French ^^ ) and Paolo Bacchini,an interesting guy who was really really good at the last Euros... he's considered promising... : ) this is his Free in Tallin, to Cirque de Soleil. his next Short will be "Pinocchio",which suits him well,hehe.

back to the poor Filippo... >.< this is Danse Macabre at Italian Nationals...he was much better here ^^ XD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovQaxH638so

[smittenbyYuna]

Like this? :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANDzO-R10WE

so cute...

[rock robster]

Here's another Danse Macabre waiting for our review, rock robster!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZbH6znJOiw
http://www.isuresults.com/results/jgptur2009/CAT002RS.HTM

OK, here are some impressions of Sofia Biryukova's Bosphorus Cup skate:
-I started seeing a bit of Yuna in Sofia from the opening pose, which brought to mind Yuna's James Bond opening.
-I see Yuna's influence in her jumps. The first combination (triple-triple attempt, it looks like?) showed speed and attack in entry, and the angular trajectory and flow reminds me of Yuna's. The abruptly truncated landing on the second jump, though, caused by reverting to an upright, vertical position on entry, hampered rotation, landing and flow out. She needs to learn to overcome her fears and maintain the Yuna-like aggressive angle of attack on the second jump. Later in the program, I noticed her doing spread-eagles into her jumps (the emphasis on difficult entry another little detail allusive of Yuna). Clearly, she's looking to develop the high-GOE type of technique for which Yuna has shown the way.
-I sense a real effort to emphasize musicality in her skate. At 1:05 she does a split leap perfectly timed to an inflection point in the music. Also at 1:48, when she hits/freezes her pose at another interstitial musical juncture. I can't help but think that Yuna's fingerprints are all over this.
-In the first half of the program, up to about the 2 minute mark, Sofia was making visible efforts to skate with speed and constant movement of her arms, hands and body, again very Yuna-like. The energy was excellent, although, as should be expected in such a young skater, the emotional projection was still somewhat lacking. She needs to look like she means something with her movements.
-Sofia also needs to work on certain aspects of her spins/spirals. At 1:30, her spin seems to have lovely flexibility and extension, but to my eyes there was a bit of travel. Her attempt at a spiral at 2:00 was bad; held it for maybe half a second, then she bailed out. Since I've never seen her skate before, I can't tell whether she has technical shortcomings here or whether it was fatigue starting to set in. I'm leaning toward the latter, because:
-at 2:11 it's quite clear that she's run out of gas in attempting her jump. She was skating in circles for a bit, almost as if she was catching her breath and collecting her thoughts, and slowed down significantly at entry, consequently splatting it. I'm an avid amateur golfer, and a golf swing has similarities, from a physics point of view, to a jump, in this aspect in particular: once you start decelerating while approaching the point of release, you're in for real trouble. You can see the fatigue again when she fell out of her sit spin at 2:51. She seems to be just trying to hold on after the 3 minute mark, and is consequently having greater problems with projection, like she was just concentrating on completing the motions energetically, with very little left to attempt emotional ambience. Her final spin also seems like a homage to Yuna, but at the end all speed and energy have been spent; I counted five rotations.

I agree with jaylee: I can clearly see similarities to Yuna, and Yuna's influence, in Sofia. First, I see some physical resemblence in body type: long-limbed, slim, and graceful looking. And then the influence in her GOE-focused jump technique, as well as her effort at achieving the alchemical fusion of musicality and expressiveness that has made Yuna's style iconic. She's got some technical homework still to do, and she really needs to develop both greater strength and greater stamina. But overall, a really talented, pleasing young skater with, I think, a lot of potential if she has the desire to put in the effort.

Don't mean to toot my own horn (ok, maybe I do, a little bit ), but in another thread a while ago I predicted that very soon Yuna's influence would start to show in the next generation of skaters, in terms of physical type, and in their efforts at emulating Yuna's GOE-maximizing jump technique and her trademark musicality/expressiveness. I think I also mused that we might see such Yuna younger siblings coming out of Russia. It seems to me like the future is now.

[yunameter]

Wow, thanks rock robster! I read your review line by line following the YT video. I also agree with your conclusions.

When I first saw this LP, I was impressed by the technical contents in it. She attempted all five triples in addition to a 3-3! Even though she doubled the flip she has proper flip/lutz techniques, which is very rare and Yuna-like. Even the fall on loop is kinda reminiscent of Yuna! :-) The loop looks to me fully rotated though. What a strong jumper she is! She is younger than Gao by 4 months and I can't quite say that Gao is a better jumper than her; Gao flutzes and her loop is not consistent. (Gao has a better 3-3 though.) We know Russian junior field is quite deep but it would be hard to understand why Biryukova got only one JGP assignment last year.

Since 2009-10 season, as a prelude to this year's rule change, they got rid of spiral sequences from junior ladies. That's the reason why she didn't hold the position long enough. She did it just as a transitional movement. I think it's not a good idea to skate an LP to such an intense music as Danse. And they don't have a spiral section! No wonder why she got tired in the end of the program.

[rock robster]

Wow, thanks rock robster! I read your review line by line following the YT video. I also agree with your conclusions.

When I first saw this LP, I was impressed by the technical contents in it. She attempted all five triples in addition to a 3-3! Even though she doubled the flip she has proper flip/lutz techniques, which is very rare and Yuna-like. Even the fall on loop is kinda reminiscent of Yuna! :-) The loop looks to me fully rotated though. What a strong jumper she is! She is younger than Gao by 4 months and I can't quite say that Gao is a better jumper than her; Gao flutzes and her loop is not consistent. (Gao has a better 3-3 though.) We know Russian junior field is quite deep but it would be hard to understand why Biryukova got only one JGP assignment last year.

Since 2009-10 season, as a prelude to this year's rule change, they got rid of spiral sequences from junior ladies. That's the reason why she didn't hold the position long enough. She did it just as a transitional movement. I think it's not a good idea to skate an LP to such an intense music as Danse. And they don't have a spiral section! No wonder why she got tired in the end of the program.

Thanks, yunameter, for the really sharp and interesting comments . I agree that she has real potential as a jumper, and the jump style is very Yuna-like! I do recall now the discussion some time ago regarding the dropping of the spiral element, and it explains the brief "spiral". I have to say, the spiral as a transitional element looks kind of weird to me, almost like an afterthought and without discernible purpose. Athletically, the brevity of it doesn't allow the move to showcase any skill in particular, and aesthetically it doesn't seem easy to integrate with with the choreography before and after. I'm almost of the view that it's just better left out. I also think you may be right that the physical demands of trying to skate at such continuously high tempo over 4 minutes is challenging, particularly for a junior skater. If you don't have the stamina for it, then possibly the strategy for pacing the program needs to be adjusted.

What's your take on Sofia from the point of view of artistic impression?

[jaylee]

I agree with jaylee: I can clearly see similarities to Yuna, and Yuna's influence, in Sofia.

Don't mean to toot my own horn (ok, maybe I do, a little bit ), but in another thread a while ago I predicted that very soon Yuna's influence would start to show in the next generation of skaters, in terms of physical type, and in their efforts at emulating Yuna's GOE-maximizing jump technique and her trademark musicality/expressiveness. I think I also mused that we might see such Yuna younger siblings coming out of Russia. It seems to me like the future is now.

Amazing analysis rock robster! I have to shamefully admit though, that my seeing of the smiliarities was more along the lines of, "Black costume...white design in the front...long sleeves...yup, inspired by Yu-Na!"

And, I totally agree with you that Yu-Na's GOE maximizing technique will be seen as the formula for success for the ladies, and I do see quite a bit of it amongst the younger set already. It's pretty cool to see.

[yunameter]

What's your take on Sofia from the point of view of artistic impression?

Well, I don't think my English is good enough to say anything about arts, but let me try. :-)

As you said she was definitely listening to the music and that's fine. But I'd like to talk about her arm movement. Her arms were a little stiff probably because of tension, but the little awkwardness in her arm movement somehow matched the theme of the music. I felt the similar thing with Dytrt's arms but I liked them both. :-) I also observed in the step sequence her channeling with Yuna in that she tried to mimic the typical turn in Yuna's Danse step, namely, swinging one arm or leg, then turning upper body following it, and then turning head lastly!

[AppleCinnamon]

Entire post.

Wow your analysis is so in depth! O___O I'm deeply impressed! I completely agree with your entire post! I'd love to hear your thoughts on Kiri's Danse. I personally see a lot of Sasha Cohen influence in her.

[rock robster]

Amazing analysis rock robster! I have to shamefully admit though, that my seeing of the smiliarities was more along the lines of, "Black costume...white design in the front...long sleeves...yup, inspired by Yu-Na!"

And, I totally agree with you that Yu-Na's GOE maximizing technique will be seen as the formula for success for the ladies, and I do see quite a bit of it amongst the younger set already. It's pretty cool to see.

Hey jaylee, I always get a little thrill when a compliment comes from you (I think it's almost Pavlovian now ), but why do I get the feeling you're employing flattery to shirk your obligations? The *ahem* Scheherazade commentary *ahem* . No pressure, though...(NOT!!! I demand to see it! ).

[rock robster]

Well, I don't think my English is good enough to say anything about arts, but let me try. :-)

As you said she was definitely listening to the music and that's fine. But I'd like to talk about her arm movement. Her arms were a little stiff probably because of tension, but the little awkwardness in her arm movement somehow matched the theme of the music. I felt the similar thing with Dytrt's arms but I liked them both. :-) I also observed in the step sequence her channeling with Yuna in that she tried to mimic the typical turn in Yuna's Danse step, namely, swinging one arm or leg, then turning upper body following it, and then turning head lastly!

Really insightful comments, yunameter! I'm with you on the slight bursitis of the arms thing you mentioned with regard to both Sofia and Annette (although more so with Annette, only she did it with such cheerful abandon, like a manic wind-up action figure, that it's hard to dislike ). I think I was feeling something similar when I noticed Sofia's need for better "projection". The connection might be this: when a person tries to communicate something they are passionate about, it seems to me that the body somehow independently gets the notion that the mind and the mouth by themselves are not doing a good enough job. The eyes spin and lock onto the interlocutor like a compass to true north. The body seems to autonomically leap into the scrum, adding its own movement (hence "body language") to emphasize what the the person is trying to say. If the passion is strong, then the body seems infused with an electric grace; and where the passion is fully realized and specific, the body tends to use the arms, hands and fingers as exclamations, almost as if it were spontaneously creating a physical vocabulary and grammar to try to make the other understand (try and recall a lover's quarrel and tell me if you don't think this is so ). This is when an onlooker gets the feeling that there is an attempt to convey something true. And almost without exception the best performers in the arts possess these characteristics, e.g. Yuna. Where Sofia still needs to develop is to go beyond seeing a skate as merely as snapshot series of positions and poses, and understand that the movements in the skate need to be fluid, dynamic, and detailed at the tip of the expressive spear, the fine motor instruments in the body's arsenal (the eyes, the arms, the hands and fingers).

Re: Yuna's Danse step, ITA that even someone unfamiliar with skating can sense the grace and elegance of it. Completely agree on the concept, although a technical minor disagreement: if one looks very closely, I believe the upper body swings first, followed by the leg/arm, and then the head, although it's hard to distinguish because it's so subtle. The leg/arm will be raised into position, but it doesn't actually swing until infinitesimally after the body does. This creates the sense of languid delay. It almost has to be this way from a physics point of view. If you play golf: leading the action with the arms before the body rotates results in a reverse pivot which usually comes to a messy end. Almost any athletic maneuver involving rotation (a skating jump, a golf swing, a baseball or football throw, a soccer kick, a 360% basketball dunk) shares the same mechanics. Leading with the extremities before the core would be the tail wagging the dog, in which power and accuracy disappear. This is also why, I think, Yuna's step can be universally acknowledged as beautiful; it's a case where the subconscious appreciation of form is grounded in an instinctive understanding of function.

This post has been edited by rock robster: Aug 19 2010, 09:03 AM

[rock robster]

Wow your analysis is so in depth! O___O I'm deeply impressed! I completely agree with your entire post! I'd love to hear your thoughts on Kiri's Danse. I personally see a lot of Sasha Cohen influence in her.

Hi, AppleCinnamon! I've watched Kiri's vid quite a few times, and am thinking it through. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well, since you are probably much more familiar with her (first time I've seen her). My first impression, though, was the same as yours. I was thinking: did Sasha get a facelift/botox and a different haircut to sneak back into juniors?

[jaylee]

Hey jaylee, I always get a little thrill when a compliment comes from you (I think it's almost Pavlovian now ), but why do I get the feeling you're employing flattery to shirk your obligations? The *ahem* Scheherazade commentary *ahem* . No pressure, though...(NOT!!! I demand to see it! ).

Aww, you totally guilt tripped me into finishing it up...here it is: http://yunaforum.com/forum/index.php?showt...amp;#entry46294

The real reason why I didn't post it before is because watching Michelle's Scheherazade programs reminded me of how sad that season ultimately ended up being. So, I just posted my thoughts on Yu-Na's Scheherazade for now. I might put up comments on Michelle's later if I can find the heart to.

re: Kiri -- she does in fact admire Sasha Cohen, so interesting that you guys see that in her. Personally, when I first saw that program, I was not impressed because her strengths are the opposite of Yu-Na's and therefore the qualities that I think makes Yu-Na's Danse Macabre spectacular are missing in Kiri's. She does interpret the music well for her age (even though I find her a bit overly packaged for a junior) but for me it's missing that something extra, the presence, speed on the ice, and technical brilliance that takes it from good to great that I think this music almost demands.

[rock robster]

Aww, you totally guilt tripped me into finishing it up...here it is: http://yunaforum.com/forum/index.php?showt...amp;#entry46294

The real reason why I didn't post it before is because watching Michelle's Scheherazade programs reminded me of how sad that season ultimately ended up being. So, I just posted my thoughts on Yu-Na's Scheherazade for now. I might put up comments on Michelle's later if I can find the heart to.

re: Kiri -- she does in fact admire Sasha Cohen, so interesting that you guys see that in her. Personally, when I first saw that program, I was not impressed because her strengths are the opposite of Yu-Na's and therefore the qualities that I think makes Yu-Na's Danse Macabre spectacular are missing in Kiri's. She does interpret the music well for her age (even though I find her a bit overly packaged for a junior) but for me it's missing that something extra, the presence, speed on the ice, and technical brilliance that takes it from good to great that I think this music almost demands.

Aww, now you're making me feel guilty for making you feel guilty . But then again, given the result, I'm also kind of glad that I goaded you a bit! I've got to run right now, but I'll definitely be back soon to savor your post (on the new thread that you created).

Also, your comments on Kiri are disconcertingly identical to what I was thinking (are you a medium? ), although I am impressed with some of the qualities she does have, albeit, as you say, the package and impression is quite different from both Yuna and Sofia. I'll try to expand on this a bit when I get back.

[yunameter]

Re: Yuna's Danse step, ITA that even someone unfamiliar with skating can sense the grace and elegance of it. Completely agree on the concept, although a technical minor disagreement: if one looks very closely, I believe the upper body swings first, followed by the leg/arm, and then the head, although it's hard to distinguish because it's so subtle. The leg/arm will be raised into position, but it doesn't actually swing until infinitesimally after the body does. This creates the sense of languid delay. It almost has to be this way from a physics point of view. If you play golf: leading the action with the arms before the body rotates results in a reverse pivot which usually comes to a messy end. Almost any athletic maneuver involving rotation (a skating jump, a golf swing, a baseball or fooball throw, a soccer kick, a 360% basketball dunk) shares the same mechanics. Leading with the extremities before the core would be the tail wagging the dog, in which power and accuracy disappear. This is also why, I think, Yuna's step can be universally acknowledged as beautiful; it's a case where the subconscious appreciation of form is grounded in an instinctive understanding of function.

Thanks rock robster! You described it really well. I now realize it's not my English that makes it hard to express my impression on Yuna's performance. I don't think I can describe it in my mother tongue as well as you did. :-)

[rock robster]

Thanks rock robster! You described it really well. I now realize it's not my English that makes it hard to express my impression on Yuna's performance. I don't think I can describe it in my mother tongue as well as you did. :-)

For someone whose native tongue isn't English, you are shockingly fluent . Also, IMO your comments are really perceptive and I enjoy reading your posts immensely!

[jaylee]

Also, your comments on Kiri are disconcertingly identical to what I was thinking (are you a medium? ), although I am impressed with some of the qualities she does have, albeit, as you say, the package and impression is quite different from both Yuna and Sofia. I'll try to expand on this a bit when I get back.

Not a medium, but I'm glad to hear we think alike! Keep up the commentaries, I love hearing them.

I think it's so cooooool that it's only been a year since Yu-Na's Danse Macabre and at least 2-3 young skaters have clearly been inspired by her awesome performances so much that they immediately wanted to attempt the music themselves. I'm sure after the 10th young skater has done it I will get bored, but not yet.