Yu-Na Kim Forum: Adios Noninos FS Program Thread - Yu-Na Kim Forum

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Adios Noninos FS Program Thread

#1 User is offline   os168 

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:43 PM

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#2 User is offline   os168 

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:52 PM

A couple of random thoughts.... mostly work in progress (continuation from a the post reply to ToFarAwayTimes)

This modern jazzy version of Adios is very likely to have been edited for similar reasons like the unfamiliar cuts of Gershwin or the Les Mis had been reshaped to complement choreographic intentions than exist on its own. Perhaps to push Yuna to tackle something new, challenging, unfamiliar for personal break through. As well as the audience's expectation of an established well known piece of music. Perform beyond herself, beyond the sport and to have meaning and proper mile stone in her illustrious career. A sort of summation and maturation of the artist she has become. Neuvo Tango for Neuvo Skater. The elusive goal of higher learning to seek artistic truth (originality, authenticity) has always been lonesome, risk taking, experimental, self doubting, peaks and troves, especially when one wish to seek transcendence, the beyond self, beyond status quo, moving forward. It is up to the artist's own device of emotional learning, surrendering and intellectual reasoning, courage - possibly beyond her life experience to come with the goods, which is why it is so exciting, the uncertain, the free is exciting, so let's just wait and see.

Although certainly I am curious what does this version of Adios means to her? Is it really going to be something like Les Miserable conveying the broad strokes of emotional arch and themes? Literally, it is an eulogy to the composer's dead father, or perhaps a meditation, biographical reading of self reflection, a mirroring of the outpouring of complex emotions in various shades (love, lose, regret, longing, sweetness, bitterness, good and bad memories, nostalgia, anger, forgiveness, reconciliation, peace etc.)? Or does it feature one consistent strand? Is Astor's father a traditionalist, a strict parent? Does it mirror Yuna's own life story at all?

Nuevo tango inhibit combination of jazz and European classical music. This fusion insist utilising Bandoneon - an unusual and non traditional instrument that highlight rhythmic changes as if it is the heart beat of the people makes it distinctively uniquely compare to other traditional classic war horse with strong melodic buildups. Skating with the music is something Yuna totally delivered during her El tango de Roxanne to Eurosports commentator's wild acclaims. It is also the instrument of choice for nomads, gypsies, circus, the sort of folk music instrument of every day people on the street, and with it the inherent recollection of something solitary, sad, joyful, wild, melancholy, nostalgic, rough and ready, emotional honest, reflect heart and soul of the people that is unpredictable and utterly free. It seems natural therefore to ask, how would one react to the music on a visceral level without all that knowledge of who is Astor, his father, what is this music about and react purely on instinct?

This might be controversial, but I have always felt Yuna was never been truly within the inner elite circle of the figure skating world, not without Orser anyway. She doesn't come from a powerful federation, no established coaches to begin with (Orser was still doing shows when she approached about the possibility). No world class powerful agency to get her sponsors, to hype her up. She literally built her team and her reputation from scratch. Her style of skating are kind of non-conforming modernist in approach, even with excellent techniques (taught by humble Korean coaches unknown outside Korea) yet ends up with techniques that are widely admired in a sport full of world class coaches. It is a rag to rich story epic in its own right, a kind of people's champion, local folk hero, a modern day phenomenon. She has one of the sweetest love story with the Korean public, one she seems to reciprocate but it must have brought her lots of pressure and other complicated feelings. Her choices of programs can often be considered anti elitist (Kiss of the Vampire, Bond, El Tango, lots of OST, Westend show etc) and there are parallels perhaps she can withdrew with how Tango (wild and free) vs Ballet (classical and traditional), it is like day and night. Yuna seems to be someone who's probably loved far more outside certain elite circles of the sport (not Dick Button and his toe pointing obsessives for sure :rolleyes:, or those who worships great European warhorse music/ ballet traditions) and she was lucky to have competition under the more objective system than 6.0, good and bad. There's so much rich content and ideas right there within her own personal story/journey which she can draw from and enrich her program. All these background perhaps may be useful for Yuna to share some insights to do with the composer's personal struggles of getting recognition in his field during his days. Stubbornly putting out his unique fusion of music to be heard without compromises despite certain pressure of the traditionalists. Holding upon to some artistic ideal, a defiance of solitude, confidence and self respect.

Wiki stated

Quote

Piazzolla's new approach to the tango - nuevo tango, made him a controversial figure in his native land both musically and politically. However, his music gained acceptance in Europe and North America, and his reworking of the tango was embraced by some liberal segments of Argentine society, who were pushing for political changes in parallel to his musical revolution.

Remind you of anyone?

By selecting Adios Nonino, Yuna became one of the very few skaters who has never repeated a competitive program in her career except did 2 west end shows (Miss Saigon and Les Mis both by Schonberg) and also the Tango genre twice. One at her debut season with a world record breaking short, and now her FS at her final season final program, book ends her career. Both programs will require great deal of stamina with rhythmic demands and ironically are performed (+ to be performed) while dealing with injuries. In doing so, she stubbornly uphold onto the principles of seeking artistry with single mindedness and courage. Always moving forward even it is not easy, always risky, always vulnerable to critics (who doesn't deal with changes well, unexpected or fringe arts well) and with a lot of hard work. I would not be surprised if there are days she regret with the decisions she made and have many battles with self doubts and uncertainties.

In the rare Tango Opera which Piazolla wrote, he contemplated what is the spirit of the Tango, he created Maria De Bueno Aires, which the main character Maria became the personification of Tango, and has been described as

Quote

.. like the dance, she rises out of the dockside slums, moves to the bright lights of city, falls from grace, and is miraculously revived. And, like the dance, she's dangerous as well as supremely sexy.

(Funny info, this opera was rarely staged, but I was actually lucky enough to catch it in London around year 2000 on its final week B) .)

There are perhaps parallels with the story/spirit of Tango dance movement which Yuna can drew from in parallel with her own journey into the world of figure skating that can help to inspire her final undertaking and simply skate for herself. She rose from the cold rink of Korea and the rest is history. What is the spirit of skating is to her? Or specifically what is the story she want to tell? Luckily Yuna hasn't really fall from grace unlike the fictional character, but like many, she has experienced the ups and the downs of fame and her complicated relationship with skating. A gift or an hindrance? A talent or a responsibility? On top of it all, she CAN definitely do supremely sexy, while being very proud with every thing she has achieved, to take complete ownership her portfolio of work and hold her head up high like the Champion she is.

Bring it Yuna. Be bold, be vavavoom...You are the Great Yuna Kim! Own it! Rotten Smile it x 10! :wub: (note: rotten smile was a term she gave to her own unique look developed for El Tango De Roxanne)

Nuevo Tango that utilizes Jazz AND Tango are uniquely individualistic together or apart, there are room to freely rifted in accordance to the performer's unique perspectives. The traditional Tango were learned by imitation. Post 80s/90s, it has been about utilising principles of contemporary dance to analyses the physics of dance movement within a Tango frame work, it is therefore open to have all sort of style and interpretation to Tango. As such, it is one of natural evolution from the tradition and one does not particular style except other than the performer's own. This brings back to Team Yuna's work and the inspired programs they have developed in their journey together. Full of wonder, challenge, experiments, and play. It felt like it is the natural evolution from the days of the 6.0. With their last Jazzy venture of Gershwin at Vancouver that is thoroughly modern/contemporary they rightly littered the program with so many nice little touches that felt like improvisation, spontaneity outside the confinement of established classical figure skating programs as we know it. I wonder if we will experience the same at Sochi. I should really hope so...

(updated: 18th Dec 2013)

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#3 User is offline   yyyskate 

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 08:53 PM

Glad, you opened this thread! Finally, we have a place to discuss Yuna's special LP :respec1:

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#4 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 16 December 2013 - 10:44 PM

Thanks for this thread, OS. Sexy pictures!

You said in another place that it will be up to Yuna's interpretation of the music, and you are right, but in the end, she has to make the audience feel her interpretation. That's the litmus test ... can we feel what Yuna is trying to convey? Always the answer has been yes, and certainly we cannot judge her on Zagreb, as it was the season debut and she just did what she needed to do. Still, the mind wanders to what the final, finished product might look like. This choice by David and Yuna has really grown on me, it will be difficult for Yuna, but I have faith in her.

This will be a lot different than Les Mis or some of the other programs, because the feelings in the music are much more subtle, and sometimes intentionally ambiguous. Some people say A.N. is not "Olympic" music, but what they really mean (without realizing) is that there aren't as much obvious emotional cues to tell the audience how to feel. The audience still NEEDS emotional cues, so everything will be up to Yuna. A lot of programs we just feel the music, now we need Yuna to translate the music into emotion for us.

-----

I think looking back at the Zagreb performance, I'm happy with most of the program. I think 99% of everything up to her step sequence looks good, though I think there is a certain intermittent sadness missing from her performance. I don't mean outward crying or facial expressions either, I mean there is an inward reflection and doubt that is missing. I feel like there are moments when the music slows down where she could convey more emotions to make us feel anxious for her, worry about her. Not by emoting toward the audience, but by looking inward to herself.

The music comes alive when the step sequence begins, and the tango first half of the sequence looks really good. I like it a lot.

The second half of the step sequence, I feel like Yuna was playful, she smiled, then did a light turn with her hand on the ice, then emoted toward the audience, among other choreo. Her arms moved freely about her. It felt like flirty, kind of light-hearted. I'm not sure this is the best idea for this part of the music though, because you get the following sequence in the program:

Tango -> Playful -> Uplifting music (when the emotional cue comes from the music at Yuna's layback ina bauer)

There's no emotional transition here, no storyline, no contrast, it just doesn't work for me. The inspirational music cue seems nice, but out of place.

On the other hand, if she change the slow part of the step sequence, to make it more like a sad introspection, private moments of regret, self-doubt, etc. then the program goes like this:

Tango - > Some doubt, private moments of regret -> Uplifting and inspiring music

There's some light piano there but, is that the bandoneon that makes me feel like there should be more sadness, even pity?

Either way, this would give better emotional pacing to the performance in my opinion. Yuna should make the audience feel sad for her, and worry about her a little ... but then when the music rises at her layback ina bauer, it becomes so uplifting and inspiring. It would feel like everything is unified, not disjointed.

-----

when Yuna finishes her 2A+2T+2Lo, she turns and fires her arm into the air. I really like this.

Next, she does a windmill with arm as she turns to head down the ice. Did anyone notice this was about 1 second after the music cue at Zagreb performance?
I couldn't help but wonder whether the choreography was supposed to be like that, or was she tired and forgot and did it late?

Wouldn't it be better if she did the arm windmill 1 second earlier, in time with the music?

-----

Finally, the choreo sequence is the only part of the program that I feel like is a total letdown. The second half of the step sequence I would like to feel different emotions, but that's in the artistry, I feel like the last choreo sequence is the only part of the program that didn't work for me from a construction point of view. Yuna wasn't in touch with the music at all, the choreo didn't match the music, it was all such a letdown.

This is the only part I feel like needs a major fix.

For me, I get the impression from the music that this last sequence should have a controlled desperation to it. It needs a lot more energy. One of the feelings that really comes to mind is determination. Right up to Yuna's fantastic ending pose, I feel like there should be a dizzying pace to the end of the program, but always with a fierce determination from Yuna, and when the program is over, the feeling like she gave it her all and left everything on the ice.

This post has been edited by ToFarAwayTimes: 16 December 2013 - 10:48 PM


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#5 User is offline   yyyskate 

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 03:48 PM

^^ the windmill arm move after 2A-2T-2Lo is indeed a little awkward, perhaps it's the timing. Choreo sequence is not timed right in competition, recommend you watch the practice clip and the tweaked clip by NewYunaFan (links listed at the beginning of this thread), how do you feel after that.

#6 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 09:30 PM

I watched the practice clip and the edit yyy. Here's some thoughts:

1. I was reluctant to watch the edit because I thought it would just intercut performance clips with practice clips, but it was really well done! When I watch Yuna land 3Lz+3T I couldn't even tell the performances were different! :respec1:

2. That said, I still don't like the edit version of the music with the last choreo sequence and combination spin. I think the best version from everything I've seen is the practice run-through.

3. Even on the practice run, the last sequence still needs MORE choreo, more controlled desperation, frenzy, whatever can give it more energy.

4. I notice the practice run jump layout is different from competition video. I know she added a double jump because of the fall, but I thought it was added after 3S? Because I remember 3S by itself in Les Mis ... but the practice video makes it seem like 3Lz should be by itself? Confusing for me :D

5. I'm not sure how I feel about the different jump construction. I kind of like the 3+2 later in the program, I think it matches the music. How does bonus factor in? In the practice run, there's a longer lead time into layback ina bauer, seems to try and set it up more, but like I've said before, I think it's the interpretation of the music from earlier that was the problem.

6. Gah, that arm windmill really bothers me now. :P I think back to Danse Macabre and Les Mis and other programs, Yuna never misses a beat with her arms, it feels obvious that she should wind her arm a second or two earlier to match the music, but what do I know. :eusathink:

7. This was STILL a good performance by Yuna, especially for season debut and her stamina lacking because of previous injury. She'll be better just from more conditioning, that's for sure.

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#7 User is offline   USfigureskater 

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Posted 17 December 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 17 December 2013 - 09:30 PM, said:

4. I notice the practice run jump layout is different from competition video. I know she added a double jump because of the fall, but I thought it was added after 3S? Because I remember 3S by itself in Les Mis ... but the practice video makes it seem like 3Lz should be by itself? Confusing for me :D

5. I'm not sure how I feel about the different jump construction. I kind of like the 3+2 later in the program, I think it matches the music. How does bonus factor in? In the practice run, there's a longer lead time into layback ina bauer, seems to try and set it up more, but like I've said before, I think it's the interpretation of the music from earlier that was the problem.

Yes, the three combos should have been 3Lz-3T, 3S-2T, and 2A-2T-2Lo. She added a double toe at the end of the second lutz because she fell on the first one and failed to add the combination onto it. If she hadn't, the second lutz would have counted as a jump sequence and its point value factored by x.8

Her jump repertoire is the same as last year's, just a different layout. She switched the solo salchow with the salchow combo I'm guessing because the solo matches better with the choreographic stop right after it. The bonus is 10% added to any jump after the halfway mark of the program, so technically, the switch between the salchows loses .55 points (which is pretty minuscule).

I actually agree with you a bit on the 3Lz-2T later in the program, but nothing compares to her first 3-3. I hope I clarified a bit :)

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#8 User is offline   Nadia 

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:07 PM

I'm excited and looking forward to her performance of LP at Nats. I'm hoping she's in better condition.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 08:10 PM

In this rendition of Adios, the piano is more dominating force than bandoneon but it still has the well known excerpt from the conventional rendition, so it's a bit of old and new. I find the music edit and cut perfectly fine, even refreshing and modern.

This post has been edited by Realdeal: 18 December 2013 - 08:17 PM


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#10 User is offline   ArgieFan 

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 09:54 PM

A little detail: the musical instrument is called badalion ( "bandoneon" in spanish, "bandoleon" in argentine-spanish :biggrin2: ).

Posted Image

A badalion is, to put it simply, a portable organ.

Purists will disagree. :biggrin2:




By the way, I live in the city where born Astor Piazzolla, the author of "Adiós Nonino". B)



A little off topic: I just found out that Yuna donated $ 100,000 on Wednesday, 11 past, to Unicef. :wub:

This post has been edited by ArgieFan: 18 December 2013 - 10:37 PM

A champion is one who wins leaving no doubt in world.

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#11 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:14 PM

View PostUSfigureskater, on 17 December 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Yes, the three combos should have been 3Lz-3T, 3S-2T, and 2A-2T-2Lo. She added a double toe at the end of the second lutz because she fell on the first one and failed to add the combination onto it. If she hadn't, the second lutz would have counted as a jump sequence and its point value factored by x.8

Her jump repertoire is the same as last year's, just a different layout. She switched the solo salchow with the salchow combo I'm guessing because the solo matches better with the choreographic stop right after it. The bonus is 10% added to any jump after the halfway mark of the program, so technically, the switch between the salchows loses .55 points (which is pretty minuscule).

I actually agree with you a bit on the 3Lz-2T later in the program, but nothing compares to her first 3-3. I hope I clarified a bit :)


Thanks USfs for your explanation. :)

I wonder if Yuna and her team will find they like the 3Lz+2T later in the program, as we did? Would be ironic if her fall at Zagreb winds up improving her program.

It's hard for me to tell what I think of the original layout though, since there's only the practice clip, and some of the run through was left out.

View PostRealdeal, on 18 December 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

In this rendition of Adios, the piano is more dominating force than bandoneon but it still has the well known excerpt from the conventional rendition, so it's a bit of old and new. I find the music edit and cut perfectly fine, even refreshing and modern.


Did anyone else feel like the choreography and presentation played more to the piano than the bandoneon? I'm not a musical expert or anything, but to me it felt at times like there is a musical dialogue between the two, sometimes the emotion is ambiguous. The piano more light and flirty, and bandoneon more sad or regretful. I think it's the whine of the bandoneon that makes me wish to feel more introspection in this program.

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:29 PM

View Postos168, on 16 December 2013 - 08:52 PM, said:

Although certainly I am curious what does this version of Adios means to her? Is it really going to be something like Les Miserable conveying the broad strokes of emotional arch and themes? Literally, it is an eulogy to the composer's dead father, or perhaps a meditation, biographical reading of self reflection, a mirroring of the outpouring of complex emotions in various shades (love, lose, regret, longing, sweetness, bitterness, good and bad memories, nostalgia, anger, forgiveness, reconciliation, peace etc.)? Or does it feature one consistent strand? Is Astor's father a traditionalist, a strict parent? Does it mirror Yuna's own life story at all?
Simple. By the choice she makes the songs, I think she always prefers the dramatic to the cheerful.


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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 18 December 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

The piano more light and flirty, and bandoneon more sad or regretful. I think it's the whine of the bandoneon that makes me wish to feel more introspection in this program.


Yes. Argentines always talk about "the pains of badalion". My countrymen are very melancholy. :biggrin2: But, life is simple.


A champion is one who wins leaving no doubt in world.

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#14 User is offline   ToFarAwayTimes 

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Posted 18 December 2013 - 10:50 PM

View PostArgieFan, on 18 December 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Yes. Argentines always talk about "the pains of badalion". My countrymen are very melancholy. :biggrin2: But, life is simple.


That's interesting, thanks ArgieFan. Adiós Nonino feels like a nice piece to interpret. The piano and bandoneon counter each other, so the music doesn't sound too whimsical, nor too sad. A mix between the two.

I actually like David's cut of the music. Still feels like something is a little off, but I think it might be the presentation more than the music. Yuna always comes through when it matters, and she will get in better condition, I think we should feel good about her figuring it all out in time for Sochi.

It's still nice to discuss the program though and theorize about possible improvements :)

This post has been edited by ToFarAwayTimes: 18 December 2013 - 10:56 PM


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#15 User is offline   USfigureskater 

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Posted 19 December 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 18 December 2013 - 10:14 PM, said:

I wonder if Yuna and her team will find they like the 3Lz+2T later in the program, as we did? Would be ironic if her fall at Zagreb winds up improving her program.

Highly doubt it. There are so many people who say her signature triple triple makes the program, and I completely agree with them.

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 12:18 AM

No no US,I mean can't she do 3Lz+2 later instead of 3S+2?

#17 User is offline   NewYunaFan 

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 02:11 AM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 20 December 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

No no US,I mean can't she do 3Lz+2 later instead of 3S+2?


No. Because she's repeating the Salchow, the Zayak rule requires it to be in combination. If she did a 3Lz+2T AND a 3Lz+3T, she couldn't repeat the Salchow (it would be voided).

#18 User is offline   Hoshi 

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostToFarAwayTimes, on 20 December 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

No no US,I mean can't she do 3Lz+2 later instead of 3S+2?


Yuna's solo lutz is a thing of beauty. (Well, which of Yuna's jumps isn't lol)

I'd rather have sal combo in the second half like in Les Mis, and add tano variation to 2a-2t-2lo like in Gershwin.

It really kills me that we can't see Yuna's 2a-3t anymore though. To see some other skaters get over 1.4 GOE on that combo just makes me sure that Yuna's would have garnered at least 2.0 GOE.
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#19 User is offline   USfigureskater 

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Posted 20 December 2013 - 06:57 PM

View PostHoshi, on 20 December 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

It really kills me that we can't see Yuna's 2a-3t anymore though. To see some other skaters get over 1.4 GOE on that combo just makes me sure that Yuna's would have garnered at least 2.0 GOE.

I TOTALLY AGREE.

(I recall a talk about how she could plan a well-choreographed double lutz and bring her 2A-3T back. I thought it was quite an interesting idea.)

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Posted 26 December 2013 - 07:39 PM

I came across this Tango EX on youtube by Akiko Suzuki. It was really well done. especially the step sequence in the end just marvelous.

https://www.youtube....h?v=CcycY7XcaAY

I wish Yuna's tango can bring me this kinda Tango vibe as well as something unique in her future performances (only 2 left....)

another performance of this EX
https://www.youtube....h?v=v1gDGozML94

This post has been edited by yyyskate: 26 December 2013 - 07:49 PM


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